[Josephine]

Hello everyone,

I very much hope you can offer me some advise! I'm soon to move to a 2nd floor flat in a converted old(ish) builing. I shall be moving my upright piano into the flat and would like to do as much as I can to minimise the noise to the flat below.

As I am renting the flat I can't start ripping up floorboards etc! But any advise regarding what I can place under the piano (perhaps under the carpet?) to dampen the sound would be very gratefully received!

Thanks in advance!

Josephine

[Barrie Heaton]

First off all I would see if the folk down stairs complain first if the flat has be converted recently then there is probably quite a bit of sound insulation there building regs

Now I have a client who lives in a 70’s flat….. fart and next door but one complains about the noise. What he did was to get a 8’ X 4’ sheet of block board and some 5” x 3” lengths of wood, spaced at 2’ he then got 8” thinck fibber glass sheets and placed between the 5” x 3” screwed block board down to the 5” x 3” coved it with carpet, he built himself a little stage……. The lady below stopped complaining, to kill the sound a bit more he go a big Persian Carpet and hung it on the wall about 2” off the wall

Both fixes look part of the room the stage is dead money but the carpet he can take with him if he moves


Barrie,
_________________
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page

[factotum]

This is not my problem, but I am trying to help.
Background:
This complex is a high end town houses connected side by side (Row houses with party walls). The homes are R2000 spec and have 6 inch concrete (party walls) separating the homes. These walls are covered with 2" of white styrofoam on each side. This is covered with 5/8 gyproc wall board. From my research the hard foam actually enhances the sound, not deaden. The piano is on a carpet on a concrete floor, the ceiling has also been insulated. Later another layer of gyproc was added.
A piano teacher moves in next door to a quiet, fussy, couple with no kids. They can still hear some noise occasionally and they are causing problems. The piano is on the ground floor and the sound can be heard in the adjacent ground floor and the main floor as well. The developer is desperately trying to solve the problem. They are considering asking the piano teacher to move her piano to the garage.
Is it possible the sound is exiting the sealed glass windows and entering back in the neighbours windows?

Sorry for the long description, but this must be solved. The complaining neighbour has already called the City to report that the music teacher is running a business from her home. This is not going to go away!

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[Gill the Piano]

A few of my customers have found that slabs of polystyrene (the sort of two inch thick stuff you lag tanks with) underneath and behind the piano has helped. Also that the piano shouldn't be on the floor directly, but on carpets, rugs - anything to help deaden the sound. The teacher could also approach whatever the Canadian equivalent of Environmental Health dept. is (the lot you complain about noise to) to ask their advice. This will have the added benefit of her being seen to be willing to redress the situation. Was she there before the fusspots? That too might have some bearing on things.
Good luck!

[factotum]

Gill, thanks for the reply.

The fusspots moved in first. I do not think the polystyrene is the answer. We have 5 cm of this on each side of the concrete wall. It is like a mold for the concrete wall. I contacted an expert on this months ago and he stated that this stuff acts almost like a drum and actually magnifies the sound.
We might try thicker carper pads under the piano legs. Also your suggestion to contact the dept of Environmental Health will be worth a try.

I am looking for an accurate sound meter to find where the sound is entering. Once this is determined we can focus our attention in the right direction.

I do appreciate your advice.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Gill the Piano]

Won't Environmental Health measure it for you? I'd do that first, because if they say the noise isn't unreasonable, there's no need to carry on soundproofing to the nth degree.
What about waffle/eggbox type of proofing? That's what they played with at college when I was there hundreds of years ago. If you look up the Piano Tuner's Association website they have contacts for all the British tuning colleges, most of whom will have acoustic teachers/experts who might be able to help. God knows I sat through enough psycho-acoustics lectures in my time... That was at what was then the London College of Furniture, but is now the London Metropolitan University or somesuch.
Good luck!

[Barrie Heaton]

Na some of the best minds on acoustics are in Canada see if this guy is still there Alexander Galembo
These two are at one of the universities in Canada
Stephen Birkett William Jurgenson
Or contact the Canadian piano page


or if you still want to keep it out side Canada all the UK collages are list on this site Visit our main index page on the quick links and drill down to the Piano Construction page there is some interesting stuff on acoustics and then find the collage page

Barrie
_________________
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page

[factotum]

Thanks for your latest suggestions. We have located a sound meter that should hear the lowest sounds and will try it later this week. I have offered to help, but have not yet been in the home to hear how loud it is.

By the way, the City sent the piano teacher a cease and desist order. She was in tears. Imagine if you could not give piano lessons in your home. What are you supposed to do rent a hall? I personally do not think the City wants to pursue this, but they have to apply the law when they receive a written complaint.

I will keep you posted.

Gordon

[Gill the Piano]

Seems a bit premature, to send a notice without checking the veracity of the report. Is that usual?
Could she visit the pupils in their own homes until it's sorted? A few piano teachers round here do that, but she'd lose out on travelling time and petrol bills. And pupils here are provably closer together than they are in Canada !

[D Minor]

I had this problem many years ago due to a stroppy neighbour who was mad and liked to bully people. The environmental people came round and measured the sound.The traffic was louder!

There is also something to do with the hours in the day and a solicitor friend of mine had a look at the letter the council sent.It was many years ago and things might have changed,but he picked out a paragraph and said because of the way it was worded,I didn't have to worry.

Piano teaching is a grey area.It's not like you are running a car business from home and have vehicles parked outside for example.

I would tell the poor teacher to sit tight. I know what they are going through.Very frightening when someone is trying to destroy your livelihood.

BTW...the neighbour was the one to leave...

[factotum]

There are two issues now. 1) the noise complaint, 2) the City By Law. I believe if we resolve the noise complaint the other will go away. We will visit the homes in the next day or so.

The piano teacher is retired and only teaches part time. The problem is, that it is usually between 4-8PM. The complainers may have a legitimate complaint, we will know soon. Just wish they were a little more tolerant.

I will let you all know how I make out. I do appreciate your interest and suggestions.

Thanks,

Gordon