[jamesp]

Hello All

You may remember a few posts of mine from a while back - I was trying to decide what to do about the hammers on my 1930s Rogers Grand. Heres my current status...

In the end I had complete new hammers made to pattern by Abel and hung on new shanks. I fitted these roughly myself then got a technician in to do the casting and fine alignment. They haven't been voiced but other than that they are quite acceptable. I wish now I hadn't had them hung on the shanks. He could have done that - problem is a few of the shanks had to be mounted a mil or so forward to get the right striking line. I Assume this is ok as long as the jacks are adjusted to match? can't feel a difference I must say.

The trouble is the piano is still crap to play. Very uneven (despite regulation) and sluggish now (and heavy touch). I spent ages adjusting the weights but it is still not brilliant. Some of you folks warned of that (after I'd bought the new hammers ).

The centres were very bad in the old hammers so I suspect that they aren't great in the whippens/levers. Some of the jacks are right on one side, and as someone mentioned, the whole action wasn't designed for the heavier hammer felt I now have.

This all leads me to think, "why not repace the whippens for new ones?" that would mean that most of the action is brand new; the keys are all level and in very good condition, and hopefully modern whippens are likely to accomodate the weight of modern felted hammers? On this basis I found a company in the US who can supply renner whippens at a very reasonable price. With the strong pound at the moment I can get 90 for £550. I ordered one to try it out, not wanting to get my fingers burnt like I did with the hammers. It came today and I fitted it. Wow. what a difference. The treacly sluggishness has gone, the repetition is far better, the control is much improved and the touch weight is lighter (this even before I hook up the little spring on the back).

As you can imagine there are a few subtle differences between the whippens; there is however one major difference: The little short piece with the scew hole that you use to mount the whippen into the action is about 1/8" longer than the original. I found I had to put a washer between the whippen and the action when screwing it on to get it into a better position. When I replace all of them I'll be able to move the mounting rail back a little, but right now the washer is best so I don't mess up the others.

My question is this: What do I do about the change in height in the mounting piece? Should I reduce the height of the rail? I have to admit I did some reversible damage and took a small piece out of the rail carefully with a chisel to fit this one, but I don't fancy doing that another 87 times. I guess the discrepency could be taken up by regulating but I assume that the resting position/angle of the whippen is fairly important as the way it lets off will be affected otherwise.

I've taken a few pictures and put them on my website at www.jamespyke.plus.com. Your thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks

James

[jamesp]

Theres a dot at the end of my website address in my previous post so it doesn't work; it should be www.jamespyke.plus.com

[mdw]

If you are doing this for the fun of playing with a piano action thats fair enough however piano actions are made to tight tolerences. You cannot chisel a bit off here and a bit of there and hope it will work. Infact you cant chisel a bit of anywhere!! Rather than spend the £500 on bits, spend it on a good technician who knows what he is doing. However you may find a problem with that idea. I as a qualified technician i would not get involved with a diy job like this as the problems are likely to be never ending and the comebacks never ending as well.
But if you think the new bits improved it to how you wanted it and you can afford to risk the £500 then go for it.

[PianoGuy]

Now is the time either to:

1) Call in a good technician or....

2) Bin it and buy yourself that new C1 you've always wanted.

[jamesp]

Folks, heres the craic. I tried a Yamaha C1, I don't like the yamaha sound or heavy touch and besides you're looking at £12,000 or thereabouts. I don't have this much to spend right now and if I did I'd probably buy a Bechstein upright.

I paid £2250 for my piano because I like its sound and I'd rather a small grand to an upright. Its richer and less brash than new Japanese ones. Disagree all you like but in this instance its my preference so there I paid £1500 for new Abel hammers and shanks because that was the only way I could replace the hammers. Nothing off the shelf was anywhere close to fitting - believe me I tried.

Total so far = £3750.

The cheapest new piano I came across was a Bentley (a.k.a. Pearl River for about £4,500) which was, quite frankly, uninspiring. On that basis I'm still ahead. In terms of resale value I know its not worth it, but I intend to play it, not sell it!

Good technicians cost lots of money. I'd rather do the legwork myself and get a good technician to polish it. That way I get better improvement for my money. It certainly worked with the hammers.

You technicians must sometimes face the problem that you want to replace the whippens but they dont make the originals any more. This is a very close fit, but not quite perfect. I am asking what you would do in this situation to make them fit if you had to?

Please check out the pictures on the website (I've compressed them now so they will download). They show the problem far better than I can describe it.

[mdw]

[PianoGuy]

[jamesp]

I agree with you; if I had my time again I would not have bought £1500 worth of hammers. I'd have had an action restoration done professionally, then said "right, thats it, the piano is as good as it will be and is worth making it" and called a halt at that point.

I spent a long time trying to find someone to do just that. Most technicians were too far away or only interested in restoring the whole piano for about £4-5k which was definitely not worthwhile compared to buying something else. I did consider a company in Bristol, but then I played on a friend's Bechstein grand they had restored and decided firmly against it.

Anyway, the milk has been spilt and yes, having spent the £1500 I am now left with two options. Throw more at it and hope it will come good, or accept it and put up with it. After almost a year of putting up with it, the former plan has won out (just). This will be the last shot I take at it. Lets hope I get somewhere. I'll let you know.

[jamesp]

[jamesp]

Guys.

Hands up, I was stupid to take this DIY route in the first place, but I am where I am now and I have to make the best of it.

I am a stubborn bu**er and never let anything beat me. I'm going to do the best job I can. It'll never be a new piano, but I really hope I can make some improvements and get some of the value out of the parts I've bought. If I don't manage it then I'll have to chalk it up to experience and learn from my mistakes. Fingers crossed eh

[PianoGuy]

[Barrie Heaton]

[Barrie Heaton]

[jamesp]

Hi Barrie, Thanks for your help.

I bought just the one whippen for now to see how well it fitted and whether it made any improvements. Even fitted as it is it is a dramatic improvement so I am pretty keen to order the whole set. My questions are based on what I would need to do if I had the whole set. At present with just the one fitted I can't do too much as I will mess up the position of all of the old ones.

The heel of the whippen is sitting smack over the capstan - in line with the old whippens. The top edge (that the roller sits on) is in the same place - I didn't have to adjust the jack position at all. There are two main differences - firstly the bottom arm of the jack is a little longer, but it still contacts the letoff adjustment felt well so I wouldn't have thought that is a problem, secondly the centre over the mounting piece is higher so that at rest, the bottom edge of the whippen is not horizontal. I assume that this is more of a problem as it will affect the angle that the top of the whippen makes with the roller.

[jamesp]

What I was thinking of doing was removing about 2mm from the bottom of the bar that all the whippens are fixed to - where it sits on its iron mountings. My dad is a cabinet maker so I have acccess to all the tools required to make small accurate adjustments to anything wooden. I suppose the other option would be to duplicate the whippen mounting bar then I could play with the duplicate as much as I like...

The change I mention would bring the rear centre of the new whippens (when fitted) to the same level as the old ones. The only downside is I will have to put 2mm spacers in to bring the hammer rail back up so that it remains in the same position. As far as I can see (and this is where I need your expert opinion) there will not be any other side effects and the new whippens will then be in exactly the same place in the action as the old ones were.

[Barrie Heaton]

Ok you can plane off the lip to allow the flanges to fit on the beam rail. To help keep the whippens in line run a length of piano wire along the beam rail so it will fit in the slot in the flange this can be just held in place with the flanges

The extra spring at the back of the whippen will help counter the extra weight of the hammers

Have you moved the action rails if not what is the distance from the centre pin of the hammer flange to the centre pin of the whippen flange. and the new one

Barrie,
_________________
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page

[jamesp]

Hi Barrie, I've just taken a vernier to the action; measurements as follows:

Hammer flange centre to whippen flange centre (old whippen) = 112.0 mm;

Hammer flange centre to whippen flange centre (new whippen) = 112.8 mm.