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vernon
Moderator
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 75
Location: scotland
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 Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: professional forum |
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again.
Can we have a closed " professional" forum for people in the business to exchange tips, leads, and, perhaps a consolidated approach to recurring issues and problems. I know it's been raised before .
vernon |
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Barrie Heaton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: Lanc's
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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done
Barrie
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Openwood
Persistent Poster
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 389
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well, personally I think it's a sad day for the forum. I can't think of a clearer way of reinforcing the sentiment that all professions are a conspiracy against the laity than shutting out non-techs. Still, that's obviously the way you guys want it.
As I recall it, the last time the question of a closed forum was discussed there was a poll amongst members and I'm pretty sure the majority was in favour of keeping the status quo. Just waving a flag for democracy.....
Can we also have a closed forum for pianists so we can discuss which techs are the most/least reliable?
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Openwood: Just enough knowledge to be dangerous. |
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Barrie Heaton
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Location: Lanc's
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Openwood wrote: | Well, personally I think it's a sad day for the forum. I can't think of a clearer way of reinforcing the sentiment that all professions are a conspiracy against the laity than shutting out non-techs. Still, that's obviously the way you guys want it.
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Its not quite like that I am on two other piano forums which are closed some tuners new to the trade ask questions about pianos that they are having problems with and don't want their clients to know that they have not got a clue and there are quite a lot of tuners who think that it should be kept secret and will not post on an open forum
in the UK we have two closed forums but both are restricted buy membership of the PTA or the ABPT this one will be open to all in the trade and may be a bit more productive but on the hole closed forums tend to get stagnant
| Openwood wrote: |
As I recall it, the last time the question of a closed forum was discussed there was a poll amongst members and I'm pretty sure the majority was in favour of keeping the status quo. Just waving a flag for democracy.....
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I did get quite a few PM and emails requesting one
Barrie
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PianoGuy
Persistent Poster
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 1327
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Openwood wrote: |
Can we also have a closed forum for pianists so we can discuss which techs are the most/least reliable? |
Heh heh!
Nice one!
You're a moderator. Can't you sneak a peek anyway?
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longbow
Regular Poster
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 16
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Closed Forum |
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You only have to look at the PTA forum to see what happens when it is "closed", other than to it's members only. It becomes stale, boring, and eventually a waste of time. I gave up on it a long time ago when typical disscussions would revolve around who had the heaviest tool case or who had the worst cup of tea that month etc, etc. Close it if you want to but beware. Outside imput is what keeps this forum at the top of the tree and stops it becoming incestuous.
Go with a vote. Open or closed though? |
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PianoGuy
Persistent Poster
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 1327
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Closed Forum |
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| longbow wrote: | | You only have to look at the PTA forum to see what happens when it is "closed", other than to it's members only. |
PTA forum.
Can't think of anything duller.
Why not have the Tuner's forum open so that all can see the discussions, but closed to replies unless you're Trade. That way, topics that are of interest to the public can be brought up in the main forum. |
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genaa
Persistent Poster
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Winchester
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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I think there are valid points on both sides of the open/closed argument, as a relative newcomer here though my opinion is small change 
I know there is a similar discussion being had on the tuner/tech forum over at pianoworld forums. They seem to feel that far too often threads degenerate into either amateur-bashing or the same cycle of arguments over who knows what etc.
To my mind, the worst scenario of a closed forum, is that those who are knowledgeable about piano repairs etc, only discuss such things within that closed environment, leaving as Openwood puts it 'the laity' outside gawping in wonder as the high priests mumble in the temple beyond earshot.
If a closed forum leads to otherwise less experienced techs asking for advice without fear of client-reprisals then so much the better, I guess we will see by the degree to which the open forums die a death in terms of 'expert' contributions. Either that, or we will all have to re-train as tuners and your businesses will go out the window as more and more owners tune, regulate, voice and repair their own instruments.
Despite the stress of having a damaged piano at present, I really enjoy the discussions with my tuner about what may be wrong, how it came about, what might be done to address different aspects etc. I suspect many owners also enjoy discussing and exploring aspects of their pianos with those they employ to maintain them. By all means have a closed forum, just don't become a separate closed community as that would indeed be a sad day |
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Barrie Heaton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: Lanc's
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| genaa wrote: |
To my mind, the worst scenario of a closed forum, is that those who are knowledgeable about piano repairs etc, only discuss such things within that closed environment, leaving as Openwood puts it 'the laity' outside gawping in wonder as the high priests mumble in the temple beyond earshot.
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if you ask we tell you if we can
| genaa wrote: |
If a closed forum leads to otherwise less experienced techs asking for advice without fear of client-reprisals then so much the better, I guess we will see by the degree to which the open forums die a death in terms of 'expert' contributions. |
I would say more like the opposite more tuners that use the forum the more you are likely to get them chipping in in this section.
| genaa wrote: | | Either that, or we will all have to re-train as tuners and your businesses will go out the window as more and more owners tune, regulate, voice and repair their own instruments. |
There has been very little formal training in the US so most do it by distance learning so standards are very patchy and there are large areas with no tuners If things go on are they are in the UK we will be the same
| genaa wrote: |
Despite the stress of having a damaged piano at present, I really enjoy the discussions with my tuner about what may be wrong, how it came about, what might be done to address different aspects etc. I suspect many owners also enjoy discussing and exploring aspects of their pianos with those they employ to maintain them. By all means have a closed forum, just don't become a separate closed community as that would indeed be a sad day |
well so far you ain't missed much
Barrie,
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jackg
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 80
Location: South Gloucestershire
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I found reading the tuner technician forum on www.pianoworld.com most informative, it is an open forum. I have never read a post by a customer on a thread by his or her tuner or technician, the customer may have read the comments but would they understand it or have time to digest the info?
I think the benefits of making it open outweigh those of making it closed.
You could have competitions, where a tuner asks an obscure technical question and the first non tech to post the right answer wins a packet of Pearl glue or a place on a tuning seminar somewhere as they are obviously in the wrong job and they need a career change. |
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mdw
Persistent Poster
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| genaa wrote: | Either that, or we will all have to re-train as tuners and your businesses will go out the window as more and more owners tune, regulate, voice and repair their own instruments.
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Go for it .................... fill yer boots and dont worry there will be trained qualified tuners around to pick up the pieces. I can assure you the 3 years training FULL time is just the start of the training . Perhaps then people will begin to appreciate the difference between a proper tech and some one who decides " I cant do anything else but I can play the piano therefore Im a piano tuner"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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markymark
Persistent Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 239
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Openwood wrote: | Well, personally I think it's a sad day for the forum. I can't think of a clearer way of reinforcing the sentiment that all professions are a conspiracy against the laity than shutting out non-techs.
As I recall it, the last time the question of a closed forum was discussed there was a poll amongst members and I'm pretty sure the majority was in favour of keeping the status quo. Just waving a flag for democracy.....
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I have to say, I feel the same way, particularly as it is the only closed forum at present - what was the point in voting at all? I said that this was going to sour the feeling on the forum - it certainly doesn't encourage me to stay involved with the forum that's for sure - particularly given the rather small number of active posters we really have here - I mean, how many members have "Persistent Poster" status on this forum? 20? 30? Not too many when taken as a percentage of total forum members. I mean most of the 6000-odd posters that have joined the forum treat it more like an Agony Aunt's column; they ask for advice and clear off, never to be heard of again! In USA, you could nearly get 6000 members from five or six states alone. Pianoworld, last time I checked, has over 30,000 members! If you are getting a high volume of regular posting members like that, then I may see the point of privatising a forum. However, this definitely doesn't apply to the UK Piano Page forum here.
| longbow wrote: | | You only have to look at the PTA forum to see what happens when it is "closed", other than to it's members only. It becomes stale, boring, and eventually a waste of time...Close it if you want to but beware. Outside imput is what keeps this forum at the top of the tree and stops it becoming incestuous. Go with a vote. |
 Absolutely!! |
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Barrie Heaton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: Lanc's
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| markymark wrote: | | I checked, has over 30,000 members! If you are getting a high volume of regular posting members like that, then I may see the point of privatising a forum. However, this definitely doesn't apply to the UK Piano Page forum here. |
We have not made this section private and would not just added a new section which may or may not last
You will not be aware but there has been a hidden section for piano tuners on the forum since the forum started but a few years ago it was moved to Yahoo group for ease of use for some of the blind users so it is nothing new
Barrie,
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Openwood
Persistent Poster
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 389
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Absolutely. The irritating thing is that I thought we'd already done that. It would be better not to offer members polls in the first place if the results are going to be over-ridden or undermined by lobbying via pms etc. Alternatively, at least make it perfectly clear from the outset that the results of the poll might not have any bearing on the eventual outcome. Otherwise it all looks just a wee bit Zimbabwe.
| Quote: | | Outside imput is what keeps this forum at the top of the tree and stops it becoming incestuous. |
That's the point, in a nutshell.
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mdw
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Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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I dont think it says anywhere that this is a democracy. From my understanding its Barries toy and if he wants to take it away and not let any one else play thats his right.
Personaly im not too bothered either way but if I had to make a choice I would fall on the side of one bit of the forum "leaving as Openwood puts it 'the laity' outside gawping in wonder as the high priests mumble in the temple beyond earshot". Ive got my robes and hat, all we need is a funny handshake!!!!!!!! 
Is there anything you have read so far that has made a massive difference to your lives. So far the main things Ive seen are some sensible sugestions on piano choices offered to you. Some people telling you which pianos brands are from the same maker so you can go and hammer dealers into the ground on price and a bit of info you could have picked up from talking to you tech ( whilst the meter in running ).
So far only one question has been posted in the closed forum and far more posts have been put up in this thread alone ( probably  ). |
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Openwood
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Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 389
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I dont think it says anywhere that this is a democracy. |
Either democracy or dictatorship are fine with me. It's just good to know which one I'm living in.
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Openwood
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Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 389
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is there anything you have read so far that has made a massive difference to your lives. So far the main things Ive seen are some sensible sugestions on piano choices offered to you. |
Yes - I've learned such a lot about what I can get from my piano in terms of voicing, tuning etc. It's made a massive difference to my appreciation of my instrument.
I've also read a statement along the lines of 'why can't people just buy the right piano in the first place and stop fiddling with them'. Well, thanks to the forum I know I don't have to put up with that attitude anymore and I've been able to find a tech who takes my wishes seriously. I'm hugely grateful to the professionals here who, instead of telling me to put up and shut up, have spent considerable time and effort answering my questions and giving sound advice.
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genaa
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Winchester
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Go for it .................... fill yer boots and dont worry there will be trained qualified tuners around to pick up the pieces. I can assure you the 3 years training FULL time is just the start of the training . Perhaps then people will begin to appreciate the difference between a proper tech and some one who decides " I cant do anything else but I can play the piano therefore Im a piano tuner"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Hehe, I can assure you I don't fall into the category of 'would-be piano tuner or technician' and have the utmost respect for people who truly get to grips with the instrument from a technical as well as musical point of view.
I am well aware of the likely length of time taken to become a decent tuner/tech and how many thousand pianos one needs to tune after qualifying before really getting to grips with it - so no worries you won't be having to pick up any pieces I have made as I simply don't have the time to dedicate to learning a new career due to being very much still in the learning 'post qualification' stage of my current one  and besides, I haven't finished learning to play the piano yet either
I do like the idea of funny hats and handshakes however so have no objections to a closed forum - as Barrie has pointed out there has been a separate Yahoo group effectively filling that function for quite some time anyways... in hindsight it might have been easier via pm to simply direct those asking for a private forum here to the yahoo group then all would be happy and no rumblings of dictatorship over democracy, right or wrong would have been raised...
As indicated in my earlier post, I do welcome the opportunity to discuss ideas with tuners and techs, in an environment where there is not (hopefully!) that kind of collective groan that can accompany the usual "here comes an idiot piano-player with an idiot-question" mentality that can so easily develop within closed circles.
I have no reason to suspect that techs contributions on public fora here will be any the less, even if they are far busier discussing tea and biscuit virtues in the private 'trade only' area hehe.
I am interested in both piano design and technical/tuning aspects though and welcome the opportunity to discuss such things. I have no inclination, certainly at this point in my life, to have a career change but the more I read about technical aspects of the instrument I love, the more fascinated I become. At the risk of going off-topic, I have become interested for example in the wide-range of different tuning temperarents which exist, particularly some of the historical 'well-temperaments' and some newer inventions / rediscoveries such as the EBVTs' described on Bill Bremmer's website http://billbremmer.com/front-page .
I would be curious to know how many tuners/ techs regularly tune clients' instruments to temperaments other than ET and which tunings they find suitable for particular types / styles of music. Is it a royal pain in the butt to ask your tuner to experiment with putting a different temperament on the instrument? Do tuners tune different temperaments according to client wishes / their own likings, or do they tend to have a stock-in-trade which they can routinely apply quickly and easily so as to maximise the number of appointments in a day.
How many tuners really like to get acquainted with an instrument so as to tweak around with it to get the very best from it? Do tuners have different scales of charges to accommodate whether a client wants a simple A440 'any which way you like' , or someone who wants to benefit from the technical expertise their tech possesses to ensure that a piano is prepped to the very highest standard it can be? There is a difference, I am sure most folks would agree, between deciding whether to fix something because it is broken / in need of attention and whether to tweak something because the head-room for improvement is recognised to be there even if nothing is 'wrong' with a given piano....
I suspect I am way past the 'rambling' word-count now so will clock -off. I do hope to see some interesting responses to some of the questions I have raised however
p.s. can we have funny hats and handshakes for the followers as well as the clergy?  |
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mdw
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Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| genaa wrote: |
How many tuners really like to get acquainted with an instrument so as to tweak around with it to get the very best from it? Do tuners have different scales of charges to accommodate whether a client wants a simple A440 'any which way you like' , or someone who wants to benefit from the technical expertise their tech possesses to ensure that a piano is prepped to the very highest standard it can be? There is a difference, I am sure most folks would agree, between deciding whether to fix something because it is broken / in need of attention and whether to tweak something because the head-room for improvement is recognised to be there even if nothing is 'wrong' with a given piano....
p.s. can we have funny hats and handshakes for the followers as well as the clergy? |
There is such a variation in pianos we work on that you have to be flexable. In the morning I could be working on a £40k piano in in the afternoon it could be such a pile of junk that its untunable. In some cases its that pile of junk or nothing for that family so you have to be flexable and try to work miracles where it would be better not to! I guess it depends on the area and how much disposable cash people have as to what their priorities are. For some the priority is a noise from all the notes rather than toning the noise!! |
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Brumtuner
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Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway, as I mentioned in the other thread about having a closed forum, what's to stop anyone from rejoining with a 'techie' type name and saying that they're a 'tuner'?
In reality, I could be Gordon Brown's chef, but sadly........ |
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Barrie Heaton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: Lanc's
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mdw wrote: | | . From my understanding its Barries toy and if he wants to take it away and not let any one else play thats his right. |
That is not the case up to 1998 it was however, in 1998 the ABPT took control of the UK Piano Page I just implement their wishes and have to justify any antonymous actions to the council. So if you are not happy with the closed section or any part of the site you can contact the council. The quickest way is PM Melodytune or email Messer’s Millgate, Lindsay, Workmann and Wilsher do a search in the tuners section or if you are very very desperate you can put pen to paper to Mr. S. P. Chrimes FABPT Dip CTB
to be honest I think it will be dead in 6 months
Barrie,
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david g
Regular Poster
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Surrey
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with openwood, it is a very sad day. Virtually all my knowledge of pianos derives from Internet forums, much of it from reading discussions between techs. I should emphasise that I am not a tinkerer. I would always call a tech if something needs to be done. But I can have much more fruitful discussions with my tech if I well informed. If the professionals want ill-informed clients, this is an excellent way of going about it.
Also, interesting discussions can sometimes be sparked by non-tech piano owners. If the techs want to hide themselves away on a closed forum where they will never be asked such questions, everyone will lose. |
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vernon
Moderator
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 75
Location: scotland
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: closed forum |
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sorry I mentioned a closed forum now!
Obviously a lot of strong opinions, most of which seem anti.Especially as Barrie thinks it would be dead in 6 months.
My concern is that potential clients reading this forum see all the various opinions, generally strongly expressed but do not know the provenance of the declaimer.
Clearly, most of the advice given is very professionally sound and reasoned and obviously based on everyday experience and deep knowledge,but there are often some dotty and almost offensive replies too. These are often the advices quoted by customers in the shop,who soon think you are either incompetent or ignorant if you don't agree with them. I don't know what the answer is tho'
We don't sell pianos- the customer buys them. If he then wants it " fiddled about with" then he is told what can be done and what cannot.
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markymark
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Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 239
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Barrie Heaton wrote: |
You will not be aware but there has been a hidden section for piano tuners on the forum since the forum started but a few years ago it was moved to Yahoo group for ease of use for some of the blind users so it is nothing new. |
I have run an online forum before and to be honest, would be surprised if there wasn't some kind of hidden forum somewhere on these phpBB managed sites. Anyway, I think the key phrase is "not...aware". There is some truth in the saying, "ignorance is bliss" and I think it applies here too. It's like setting a cake in the middle of a table and telling the other guests sitting at the table that they can't have a piece. Don't you think the guests would have left happier not knowing the cake was there rather than be told that they can't have any? Better to leave it in the kitchen out of site if it wasn't intended for everyone to avail of it.
Similarly, the act of providing a brand new section to a forum, and then telling [the majority of] people they can't join because.... is just as tedious to me, particularly when you consider this point:
| Brumtuner wrote: | ...what's to stop anyone from rejoining with a 'techie' type name and saying that they're a 'tuner'?
In reality, I could be Gordon Brown's chef, but sadly........ |
It's understandable then, Vernon, why some people feel that the Tuner Forum is nothing more than an excuse to exclude "non-techies" and to rub it in their face, even though that may well not be the provenance of its formation!
I like it when people use good, precise language like that Vernon
Bottom line is that this was a sticky issue at the time it was first suggested by Brumtuner, the Poll made committed members' views very clear, so it shouldn't be surprising that so many people have expressed their views strongly. |
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david g
Regular Poster
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Surrey
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: Re: closed forum |
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| vernon wrote: |
My concern is that potential clients reading this forum see all the various opinions, generally strongly expressed but do not know the provenance of the declaimer. |
This is essentially inevitable with an internet forum. I tend to feel, however, that forum readers are more discriminating than one might imagine. It is not that hard to differentiate knowledgeable contributors from the dotty and offensive. But ultimately, it is the reader's own lookout. In my view, the benefits of the open forum greatly outweigh the pitfalls. |
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Barrie Heaton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: Lanc's
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: closed forum |
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| vernon wrote: | sorry I mentioned a closed forum now!
Obviously a lot of strong opinions, most of which seem anti.Especially as Barrie thinks it would be dead in 6 months. |
The reason for that remark is I have been there before and this one has been there for 3 days and the only 2 Topics both from me, one of them is a welcome and the other will be posted on here next week anyway, not a hive of activity is it. it would be nice to have a place that tuners - retailers can talk openly and not have to be part MIA, IMIT, PTA, ABPT to take part but most will not do that i the open .
Now the PTG/ MPTA has open ones and closed ones but they are mailing list so there is a difference the closed ones tends to feed of the open one and some subjects run in tandem
Barrie
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