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zappafan · Member Joined: 02 Mar 2008 Posts: 2

I have recently bought an old rogers and engbluth piano to strip down and reassemble and to also try my hand/ear at tuning. I did'nt want to practise tuning on my own 'proper' piano, as I have that regularly professionally tuned. Both my proper piano and the R&E are flat to concert pich. proper piano best part of a semitone, and the R&E slightly more. I know the tuners dont always bring older pianos up to A440 but why is this? Is it because the piano is likely to go of tune quicker or is there a danger of something breaking ? Also when tuning the R&E I noticed that sometimes on some of the tuning pins it is impossible to get the pin in the correct position as the pin seems to jerk forward a notch taking the pin beyond the point you are trying to get it to , it does the same as you detune to get the pin back. Other pins move really smoothly. Is this something I am stuck with - is it my beginners technique?

Thanks

Paul

PianoGuy · Persistent Poster Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 1323

mdw · Persistent Poster Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 184

Got a spare 3 years? Laughing

David B · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:21 am Post subject:

Typical replies from the smug tuners... Cool

What I want to know is this - your "proper" piano is a semitone flat? How "proper" is that? Shocked

Brumtuner · Persistent Poster Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 77

"Typical replies from the smug tuners...

What I want to know is this - your "proper" piano is a semitone flat? How "proper" is that?"

I'm smug but not cos I'm a tuner, it's my looks and personality.

Semitone flat pianos are about 1 in 10 on my round.

All the good pianos, I leave a few beats below pitch.

David B · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject:

Gill the Piano · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject:

We aren't smug, we're telling 'im straight that it takes a long time and - preferably - lots of supervised practice to be a tuner. It's incredibly hard to teach someone to tune, and it doesn't sound as though his R&E is an ideal beastie to start on.
Paul: You really need someone to hang over your shoulder and give step-by-step guidance, otherwise it's like trying to teach someone to drive via the internet. The clicking comes from the plank being dry, and if you push the tuning pin that bit too far, it's easy to break a string and lay yourself open to expense. It's not just your technique, though I daresay that doesn't help, because you haven't yet developed a technique.
It's so, so hard to learn tuning, and to do it on your own is daunting. And we can't help you via the computer!
Old pianos need to approach concert pitch carefully if they've been flat for a long time. Think of an old elastic band - then think of suddenly stretching it. The resulting snap wouldn't come as a surprise, yet at one time that band would easily have reached beyond the point at which you snapped it. Strings are the same. If you'd stretched that rubber band gently bit by bit, it might well have reached further than when you snapped it. That's why you need to be a bit circumspect with the strings.
Brumtuner - how come you leave gooduns flat? Or are you hoping the badduns'll explode under the strain? Smile

zappafan · Member Joined: 02 Mar 2008 Posts: 2

Thank you for the reasoned reply, ( and the other ones as well! Laughing

)

I should explain i'm doing this purely for the fun and enjoyment of it; not as a desire to take on a new career! I bought the R&E with the view that if I am able to do something with it to improve its current abused and neglected state all well and good, and if I end up busting it ( or attacking it out of frustration !!!) well it will soon be bonfire night !

I just wanted it as a little hobbylet to keep me occupied at the times when i dont feel like playing my other piano over the coming few months.

Cheers
Paul

Brumtuner · Persistent Poster Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 77

A bit of advice....

Look after the thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, unisons and octaves, and the tenths'll look after themselves.

Also, if in doubt, sharpen it. Wink

Tom Tuner · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject:

It's not that tuning is so difficult to learn (unless you are a musician who can't get the hang of listening to beats), but the sheer amount of practice required to attain even minimal competence is very tedious, actually pretty boring if your master keeps you hard at it. Having only one piano to practice on is not very helpful either.
The chief reason that a lot of pianos don't get pulled up to concert pitch is because it's hard work, and you have to allow for the fact that the piano is going to drop about half-way bact to its previous pitch and compensate for that. Including being prepared to do it all over. As for string breakage: learn to splice strings and quit worrying about it.

Openwood · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject:

For various reasons I've sometimes had to ask two tuners to work on my piano within a few weeks of each other and I've noticed that tuner A always says the piano has sunk in pitch after tuner B has gone through it, and tuner B always complains that it is sharp after tuner A has visited. They are both aware that the other has worked on the piano.

How can that be? The one who always raises the pitch has an electric tuning device and the other guy doesn't. Surely that shouldn't make a difference?

I don't want the bloody thing going up and down like a yo yo ma.

Barrie Heaton · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject:

Brumtuner · Persistent Poster Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 77

I used to say "I use to". Wink

Gill the Piano · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject:

How do the ETF's work? I have to tune a piano to a (flat) church organ, and I resort to holding a note down on the organ with a screwdriver. If the organist ever finds out he'll hunt me down and have me killed. In a very Christian way, of course. So with an ETF I could have a constant pitch going which I could flatten in accordance with the organ, is that right? Who sells them? And roughly how much?

Barrie Heaton · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:

Gill the Piano · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Barrie; I might look into that, as churches often want pianos tuned to strange pitches of ancient pipe organs.
Pianoguy and Openwood should be along in a minute with a double entendre on you never putting your clients in your mouth. Brace yerself, Barrie...oops, there goes another one...

Tom Tuner · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject:

Rubber wedge bass mutes are more secure and less damaging to organ keys than a screwdriver.

Gill the Piano · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

The wedge was a tad too wide, hence (careful!!!) use of screwdriver. As a church organist myself I don't take liberties! Smile

Brumtuner · Persistent Poster Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 77

Openwood · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:45 am Post subject:

Double entendre? Me? Never!!

Anyway, can't talk now, I've got a client waiting Wink

Gill the Piano · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

I always have the church to myself. Well, me and God, but He won't tell on me because I play the organ for 'Im.
Openwood...I'm disappointed! Wink

vernon · Moderator Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 75 Location: scotland

tuners are reluctant often to raise the pitch on an old joanna for the following reasons;
1) It takes at least 3 tunings with the consequent cost.
2)It may not stand in the long run
3) strings may break
4)The worst case; the frame may crack. It's happened to me twice in 50 years. Very frightening and diplomatically difficult!
vernon loch ness