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dave brum · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: CONCENTRATE!

Yes, Concentrate Dave! That's what I keep telling myself when I sit at my piano with a piece of printed music in front of me. So, just to re-assure me that I'm not alone, are there any other adult wannabe pianists out there that find it difficult to concentrate on, in the immortal words of Eric Morecambe, "all those squiggly lines" and things. Why do I have difficulty concentrating (is it the natural decay of the brain cells that come with age that is responsible?) on a piece of written music? I speak two languages, English and Welsh, and I need to concentrate twice as much when I read Welsh as I do when I read English. To me, reading printed music is like reading Welsh, and if my concentration goes at the piano, all of a sudden Les Dawson appears! Do any other adult learners have this problem?

Gill the Piano · Persistent Poster Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 988

I always liken it to learning to read; you'd see your dad reading the newspaper and think 'I'll never be able to do that'. Yet now you read the paper almost without thinking, (probably the best way... Rolling Eyes

). All I can say is that one day you'll be doing the musical equivalent of mouthing the words and saying 'c-a-t' in your head, and the next you'll just look at it and say 'cat'.
You simply have to be patient (not a common trait in the adult male learner, in my experience!) and wait for that Idea

moment...

markymark · Persistent Poster Joined: 04 Apr 2005 Posts: 173

Sounds like you need a 2 by 4 slapped across your knuckles never mind a ruler! Razz

Seriously though, you don't have to be self-taught to end up being a poor sight-reader! Sight-reading is one of the worst taught skills in private tuition today. I was horrified when Trinity College announced their decision to make sight-reading optional for students taking examinations from Grade 1 to 5, under the terms and conditions of their revised syllabus! Don't get me wrong - I love the board but this decision may be a little misguided. As Gill says, as you read, you no longer have to start reading the phonemes of words to know what a word says - you just know what it says. The same thing happens when you look at music - you can recognise scale-like phrases, intervals (triads are the most common and easiest to process), looking at the shape of the piece by looking at the pitching of the notes. For me, sight-reading is all about building up enough experience to be able to scan music without really having to examine music in great detail. Doing so reduces the speed of reading by literally thinking too much about it - I think you can 'over-concentrate' as well as going to the other extreme.

I came across someone recently called Yoke Wong who has recently brought out a range of tuition materials that deal specifically with sight-reading techniques. That may be worth checking out, particularly if you plan to continue down the self-taught route.

dave brum · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject:

Some days, I can concentrate better than others. I was practising at lunchtime today, the sun was shining in, and I found it relatively easy compared with the day before, when I kept on making bloody awful cock-ups and felt really bad and thought 'will I ever get this right in my life'? BUT I've been doing some Netsurfing, and I've stumbled upon the website of this teacher in York who has some free sight reading tests online, which I had a little go at today before I laid my hands on my piano - it certainly helped. I struggle with the 'mental chain' that starts with looking at a note on a piece of paper, and ends with my finger striking the key, also when I'm playing in a key that involves sharps or flats, I sometimes forget to sharpen or flatten, e.g sometimes if I'm playing in F, I might carelessly forget to flatten the odd B, and even I might sharpen the occasional F as in the key of G. All this in spite of the fact that I can play about 8 different scales with my eyes closed! I hope that I'll grow out of this in time, like a young kid grows out of p***ing the bed! I live in hope.

Actually, I don't live in Hope, that's in North Wales Very Happy

Grenache · Regular Poster Joined: 20 Oct 2007 Posts: 48 Location: UK

Hi,

I have the same bother - some days I take pleasure in trying to sight-read an unfamiliar piece as my sight-reading's pretty awful and I need the practice. Other days when I'm finding difficulty concentrating, I play some of my old favourites where either I don't need the music or only need it here and there as a memory jogger, and try to improve the quality of the playing.

I must admit I find it really difficult to move between a piece with flats then on to sharps as well.

What's the address of the website you found, Dave?

dave brum · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:41 am Post subject:

I always make sure that I have plenty of natural light in the room when I'm practising, then my brain produces more serotonin and makes me concentrate better, but this never always works for me as I'm on meds. I also spend some time studying the key signature, if necessary playing the relevant scale with both hands, and even visualising in my mind a picture of the notes that are printed that have to be altered.

The website address for you Grenache:- www.catherineholbrook.co.uk, and click on Games. NB you need the Javascript on your computer.

Celestite · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject:

Hi Dave!
Interesting you mention the meds. Years ago I was put on a cocktail of amytriptaline (or something like that!) and Prozac and the effect the Prozac had on my mental processes as far as the piano goes was phenomenal! I memorized the G minor Brahms Rhapsody in a couple of days in a way I'd never known before (or since, sadly). I can honestly say I knew every single note of it and can still play it from memory even without touching it for months on end. It was like lifting a fog while I was under the influence of the drug. Goodness only knows what it did to my brain (I suppose the fact I had one in those days probably helped) but I think going back on it just to improve my appauling concentration now would be a bit drastic.
Just to prove the point about my concentration, while I was practicing this morning, amongst the many thoughts that drifted through whilst I was attempting to learn the dots was your starting this thread in the first place. Indeed, everytime I realise how far my attention has wandered I think of your opening line "Yes, concentrate, Dave"!

dave brum · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

Hi Celestite, hope you and yours are all well!

Concentrate Dave - a staple mantra for pianists and learners across toe world, rather akin to 'Language Timothy! (Probably be too young to remember that old chestnut, I'd guess Smile

)

For 10 years I have been on good old Prozac, and on anti-convulsants since my mid teens. I think that they have affected my concentration and are continuing to do so to some extent when it comes to playing the piano in the opposite way that it affects you. Reading a book is something I used to struggle with, or reading something aloud would make me realise how much my concentration has slipped during my thirties [I'm 38]

However, since the piano has been in my life, I have noticed that this trend is being bucked, and my concentration seems to be coming back. I've started getting more books out of the library on the subject of classical music and piano history, and the study of sight reading has given my once disorganised life a sense of (I hate to use this word, it sounds too militaristic and right-wing for me to be comfortable using it) discipline.
I came inyo my living room on Sunday night, and my wife had Songs of Praise on, and immediately I shouted out 'THAT TUNE WAS WRITTEN IN G MAJOR!' proves that my interest in the piano is slowly becoming a passion.

I must say, if not for the piano, and doing all these sight reading tests my mind would be something similar to Junction 6 on the M6 and nothing would make sense Rolling Eyes

My friend is on Amitriptaline, and all the trimmings, he has told me about a famous German philosopher who, after suffering major mental illness could play the piano at perfect rhythm and pitch (think it wad Friedrich Nietzsche or someone of that ilk) Confused

Celestite · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject:

We all be fine and dandy, thank ee kindly! Hope the same goes for you both.
Good old Ronnie Corbett, remember it well! A mere 38? You are but a babe in arms! I may have a two year old in tow but I am a positively ancient 47 (ouch, there, I said it!)
While I was practicing this morning it struck me that the biggest hindrance to concentration is not having the ability to slow the mind down enough to just think about the matter in hand rather than letting it meander all over the place thinking about anything and everything, which is odd really when I consider the afforementioned effect Prozac had on me. While I was taking it I was as high as a kite most of the time so how I managed to calm my mind down to learn the Brahms is beyond me! The mind - 'tis a strange and wonderful thing!
Spaghetti junction? Mine's more like a ball of wool after the cats have given it their all! Confused

dave brum · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:55 am Post subject:

Absolutely nothing to do with music, but you do have a strange habit of injecting a soupcon of hope into the lives of ordinary folk like me.

My wife is 6 years younger than you, and we are both trying for a baby, and we are both at the back of our minds panicking a bit. So I shall go forth from here and tell Mrs.Brum all about you quadragenarian mums Laughing

Back to pianos, my friend told me of a girl that we used to both know where I was living before (we'll call her Rhian because that was her name Confused

), anyway she was up to about a grade 5 or approx. piano, and she competed in eisteddfodau but getting her to play for us would be like getting a London taxi driver to read Oscar Wilde.

Hope you're coping okay with your eldest being home from school (you need your piano to take out all of your angst on at this time), perhaps you might like to tell him/her this little joke:

Q: Why did Saint Patrick drive all the snakes out of Ireland?

A: Because it was too far for them all to crawl (of course).

ps Got some of this years Grade 1 pieces. You may have them, or be familiar with them, but I'm gonna have a go at them this morning, and I'll let you know how I get on.

Celestite · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject:

Evening, Dave!
Thank you for your kind comments Smile

For what it's worth, I know quite a few "mature" (as the medics so kindly put it) Mums, so much so I instigated the OFM club (Over forty Mums, not what you might have thought!) in a bid to preserve our sanities at the time my youngest arrived, and believe me, 41 is nothing - you've got ages yet!
As to the performance thing, I can totally relate to the girl you mention. I always much preferred a totally anonymous audience to one full of friends, family, colleagues, etc on the basis I never had to face the unknowns again whereas my nearest and dearest would always be there the following day,even if the flaws in my perfomance weren't dominating their thoughts as much as they were mine. The performance thing is a truly awesome beast and one I don't think I'll ever fully understand.
Good luck with the Grade 1 pieces, they have a very wide range of technical demands imho, more so than most previous years. Most of my pupils usually end up playing pretty much the same programme (by their choice) but next term I've got them covering the entire repertoire between them. Will be interesting to see which ones you prefer. Enjoy!
Btw, I wouldn't consider a career as a stand up comic if I were you! Laughing

Gill the Piano · Persistent Poster Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 988

And what did St Patrick say as he drove all the snakes out of Ireland?
"Are ye all roight in the back dere?"

Rolling Eyes

Sorry...

Oy, Celestite; I'm 47 the week after next...so you're actually young and vivacious. Or vicious, in my case. My mate gave birth to her first at 43, and is still a legend for bawling at a consultant (who referred to her as an 'elderly prima gravida') "WHO YOU CALLING ELDERLY, YOU OLD GIT???"

Celestite · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject:

Yo Gill, of course we're still young and gorgeous Embarassed

(well, it's the thought that counts, in my case!) Good for your friend-I was classed as an elderly prima gravida at 37 so goodness knows what that made me at 45 second time round.
On the subject of snakes, anyone know what the snake in Jungle Book is called?

crescendo · Member Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 9 Location: Middle C

Kaa.

Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

Celestite · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:06 am Post subject:

Brilliant! Thanks, Crescendo. Now I can stop doing my King Louis impression and start on "Trussssst in me" to occupy mini sprog!

dave brum · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:27 am Post subject:

Hello all

I am having a bostin time with the Grade 1 pieces, noticing now that it only takes me one hour at the very most to learn new pieces compared with the three days or so that it used to. But I have been doing a lot of power studying recently.

The fingering is something I struggle with, knowing exactly where your hands are on the keyboard without having to look down and away from the music. I know I should always follow the printed fingering but sometimes I find I am more orientated if I do it my way, trouble is, I get to thinking that I'm right all the time, and I use my own fingering rather than the printed ones, which after all are put there for the benefit of the player.

I've got one of these Question

. In the exam pieces there are three lists of three pieces. Am I to assume that the candidate chooses one of those lists in the exam, or are the ABRSM a bunch of sadists and wish us to do all nine?, although I'm gonna have a go at all nine as part of my (unofficial) studies.

Hope you're having a really wonderful day, dear Celestite (or, by the time u get and read this you would have had one. I've no wish of following my cousin's footsteps and becoming a comedian, probably an armchair philosopher would be more within my grasp.

Celestite · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 am Post subject:

Hi Dave
I'm fine, ta, about to go and do some practice while the little chap's with his childminder (me time today instead of tomorrow cos the hoards will be here!)
Just a quick note about the ABRSM system. You choose one piece from each of the three sections for the exam and should be aiming to provide a balanced programme which best suits your particular strong points. As for the choice of fingering, nothing is cast in stone but as a general rule of thumb (pardon the pun) you should aim for something which feels comfortable and avoids any unecessary changes in hand position, ie, set yourself up for as much of what follows as possible before you need to change position again. Everybody has different shape and size hands and what works for one doesn't for another. Eg, if there has to be a stretch between fingers I prefer it to be between fingers 2 and 3 but I have taught people who are more comfortable with the stretch between 3 and 4. It just depends on your hands.
Happy ivory tinkling! nice piano

Celestite · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 am Post subject:

Hi Dave
I'm fine, ta, about to go and do some practice while the little chap's with his childminder (me time today instead of tomorrow cos the hoards will be here!)
Just a quick note about the ABRSM system. You choose one piece from each of the three sections for the exam and should be aiming to provide a balanced programme which best suits your particular strong points. As for the choice of fingering, nothing is cast in stone but as a general rule of thumb (pardon the pun) you should aim for something which feels comfortable and avoids any unecessary changes in hand position, ie, set yourself up for as much of what follows as possible before you need to change position again. Everybody has different shape and size hands and what works for one doesn't for another. Eg, if there has to be a stretch between fingers I prefer it to be between fingers 2 and 3 but I have taught people who are more comfortable with the stretch between 3 and 4. It just depends on your hands.
Happy ivory tinkling! nice piano

dave brum · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:54 am Post subject:

Good morning Celestite Smile

Make the most of today, then. I'll be all on my tod today because my lady is on late shift, so plenty of time for ivory tinkling nice piano

Thanks once again for the advice. Just trying to adopt an exam type attitude so I can grab my cowardice by the bullfrogs and get this grade 1 under my belt.

Hope the examiner's piano stool takes a big fat nineteen stoner like moi Shocked

By the way, as a matter of interest, when you were a young child, did your parents expose you to a lot of classical music, or were you brought up on 70s/80s pop like me? I'd be interested to know as every time I play one of my handful of classsical CDs, I always wanna go up and practise, which listening to my 300 or so strong collection of indie rock never gives me that inspiration. I used to collect 45rpm singles many years ago, and the nearest thing to a classical piece I had was the theme music from the "Onedin Line".(Spartacus by Khatchachurian).

Also, have you got big hands? I'm lucky, I can easily do 1/5 octaves, but I have seen some church organists with really tiny hands, and they do okay. Size isn't everything, is it - with absolutely no childish peurile Sun-reader gags intended Confused

Gill the Piano · Persistent Poster Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 988

I've got short fingers, but manage to get around the keyboard all right!
Look at the beginning of your exam pieces book and it'll tell you the other requirements for your exam, like aural tests (you WILL need a lesson for that), sight reading and scales and arpeggios - or broken chords for GI I think. There's a cheap book (may even be free, but don't get yer hopes up; they aren't known for generosity!) from the Board called These Music Exams which will give you the low-down on what to expect.
If you find yourself a nice friendly teacher for a lesson or two, find out if there's a friendly unintimidating centre at which you can take the exam; here we have a choice between a huge church, involving a great long walk from waiting room to exam room (the church itself) where a large black grand sits on a stage; a posh local huuuuuuge house with a heavy-actioned grand; or a small room in a lovely Edwardian house with an open fire and an upright Steinway. I know which one I'd prefer! Smile

Your fingering sounds as bad as me - my teacher used to call me Fingers Carter when I was a brat, for my habit of using whichever fingers happen to be lying about rather than those indicated. If you use your own fingering it must be a) efficient and b) consistent. You have 3 memories, visual, aural and kinaesthetic - ie, you remember what you see, hear and FEEL. Your fingers will 'remember' a consistent pattern, but not if you change the fingering every time you play.
You may feel you've 'learned' a piece, but don't forget, there's more than the notes involved. If you really want to do the exam, get a lesson so someone can check your touch, posture, interpretation, speed and all-round musicality.
We're going to get you through this bloody exam if it kills us...! Laughing

Celestite · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject:

I second that, Gill! Distance learning at its finest, eh?
I'll have another look at the ABRSM website and check, but it's at the back of my mind These Music Exams is a downloadable pdf file. It may be that you have to have a candidate number to log in and download, in which case I'll get on to it for you, Dave. A couple of lessons would have many merits, all those Gill listed plus the advantage of a critical ear and the performance experience prior to the exam.
I'm lucky enough to have large hands, for a girlie, and can stretch a 10th without too much trouble (easily when I do the necessary stretching exercises, which I wouldn't recommend if you don't know what you're doing!)
As for my childhood musical experiences, I don't remember much of what my parents listened to apart from Dad having a load of Easy Listening LPs Embarassed

My training was purely classical with a very intimidating spinster who continued to put me on edge even into adulthood but to whom I will always be indebted. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be where I am now (it just wasn't worth the torture of turning up for a lesson having not practiced!) I also used to go regularly to Covent Garden to the ballet as a child, with my best friend and developed a passion for the music there. For my own listening experiences, I rebelled big time and was into heavy metal and rock (I was a biker in my youth, none of your namby pamby mopeds for me - the full 650cc jobbies for this one!)
We'll be celebrating your distinction in Grade 1 next term! Go for it Very Happy

dave brum · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:33 am Post subject:

Well, the weather is really foul this morning here in the English Outback, the rain is beating a rhythm on the window as I sit here and write. Proof that the weather gods are football fans Confused

I had a fantastic day of piano practise yesterday indespersed with various household chores until one of my wife's cats did the most nasally offensive poo in the litter tray that somehow spoiled it so much so that I was forced to seek asylum in the music section of the local library. But the lure of Fiona was too strong and, armed with joss sticks, I returned home to her side.

I have been at work on that arrangement of "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles" which I'm doing in the key of Eb so as to familiarise myself with the flats, particularly the Ab, which I'm using all possible opportunities to stick in. Also, to try and keep my wife interested in pianos as I fear that work etc. is getting in the way of her desire to learn to play.

Exam pieces are what I've been focusing on. I would go forpieces A1, B1, and C2 (because I love Scott Joplin!). I had a go at 'Moebius' (piece C3) as I'm also into a bit of the avant-garde as well, but having a bit of trouble with that one, will keep practising tho. Thank you Celestite and Gill for your constant encouragement. If I'd had this from my mother, I would probably be playing at cocktail bars and cafes allover Birmingham by now instead of a former alcoholic depressive on Prozac. What would I do without the love of music Question

Afraid that that piano teacher I emailed never did get back to me (perhaps her Great Aunt Ada has been taken ill, or she, like most piano teachers are extremely busy). I went on musicteachers.co.uk (apologies Mister Moderator, but this list of piano teachers omits Herefordshire) and got the number of someone else within walking distance whom I rang about 5 times, but got no reply Sad

Oh bad karma.

You're an ex-rocker too, Celestite, all my friends are too Smile

My one male friend used to play guitar and drums in a goth metal band until he discovered the pleasures and pitfalls of "Sweet Mary Jane", and now, weed-free, he's got about 11 guitars plus Marshall amp in his lounge. As for me, I was exposed to lots and lots of music as a boy, of all different types, and with no help from my family whatsoever. When I was a kid back home there was this radio station called Beacon radio 303 that used to play a really catholic range of music from little known American acts tobig Bollywood stars like Asha Bhosle (whose vocal range is mindblowing!) So I quickly got into a very broad range of stuff.

I have found out that what Louis Armstrong said was absolutely spot-on, there are only two types of music, good music and bad music. Chopin and Rachmaninoff are growing on me, but so is jazz. I don't feel like I want to listes to the Kaiser Chiefs any more, though. Are the slippers, pipe and bungalow in Eastbourne edging closer Shocked

Welcome to the "UK Waffle Page" Very Happy

dave brum · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:44 am Post subject:

Just been on the ABRSM website to find out about taking exams. Wish I hadn't Embarassed

Nothing there seems to be in plain English, does it? Maybe a teacher will explain it all to me, as I don't (and never have done so) like going into something I don't fully understand, cautious is my middle name.

Where the hell does one begin Question

Gill the Piano · Persistent Poster Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 988

Ask us what you don't understand. I mean, I know a lot about it although I'm not a teacher (too vicious, see...), and Celestite IS at the sharp end and knows all about it, as does Marky and Samick and many many others.
But now you see why we keep saying about lessons! Smile

Celestite · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject:

Hey Dave, I'm Queen of the Wafflers! If it ever becomes an olympic sport, I'm a dead cert for Gold!
Good choice of pieces. How are you getting on with the ornaments in the Sarabanda?
I checked out These Music Exams and you can download it from the download centre on the ABRSM home page. If it makes you feel any better about their website, I think it is one of the most complicated and badly laid out sites I have ever come across. No matter how often I visit it, it always takes me absolutely ages to find the information I want. If you do find yourself a teacher, they'll be able to enter you without any hassles but if you decide to enter yourself, you'll need to set yourself up as an applicant and get assigned an applicant number.
On the subject of finding a teacher, if you don't have any joy with the teachers listed on musicteachers.co.uk you could try looking at the ISM website. They have a list of registered teachers which is where I found my mentor.

Celestite · Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject:

As Gill says, ask away! I am a font of all useless (and ocassionally helpful) information! It actually is nowhere near as complicated a process as it sounds and certainly nothing you should let put you off of your new found mission in life Smile

dave brum · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:28 am Post subject:

Hello. My name is Teresa and I'm Dave Brum's wife.

Just to let you all know. Yesterday afternoon, he suffered a bad emotional breakdown and as a consequense, he won't be coming on here for a while. He's asked me to come on here and tell you all in case you may be wondering what's happened. He's made a couple of friends on this page, Celestite and Jill the Piano, and he says hi to both of you and he looks forward to talking pianos and other things with you again soon.

He's very fond of his piano, he's finally found something that he likes doing, and indeed he's hardly ever away from the thing, and when he is he's either listening to, or reading about music. He can't survive without music!

Also, Dave values his friends very very highley, and he feels bad about letting Jill down, who he tells me, is helping him with his desire to do his grade 1 piano. As soon as he's strong enough to do so, he'll contact you by private meassage Jill.

Will let you all know how he is very soon, he's got the doctors on Wednesday. Hope you are all well, much peace to you all.

Gill the Piano · Persistent Poster Joined: 25 Oct 2003 Posts: 988

Love to him - and you - from us all. Look after him; tell him his piano needs him!

dave brum · Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject:

Celestite - B major.

Celestite · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:11 am Post subject:

Consider it done! Always struck me as a happy key nice piano

Celestite · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:12 am Post subject:

You can have the minors, dim and dom 7ths for free too

dave brum · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:31 am Post subject:

What do your neighbours think about you playing scales at 12.12 am Question

Celestite · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:11 am Post subject:

Fortunately, they can't hear the piano next door, but I wasn't playing then anyway. Just enquiring for my next opportunity to get to the ivories (which with this lot at home could be a while yet Sad

)
How's your playing going?

Celestite · Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject:

A certain irony has just occurred to me - this thread started out all about concentration - look how far we've meandered and strayed from the topic!
It amused me (little things etc) Laughing