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Ben Wimpenny
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Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 9:54 am Post subject: Kemble toning/voicing |
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Ref. "new" 1994 Kemble thread - Barrie states that the bass treble crossover problem in Kembles of this period can be overcome by toning/voicing.
I have a 1994 Kemble Woburn which I bought a couple of months ago - before that it was virtually unused - no hammer wear etc. I am generally very pleased with it but the bass/treble cross over is a bit dodgy - bass notes 27 to 32 are a bit buzzy (soundboard seems ok, no split bridge, no rust on strings, copper windings seemingly o.k) whereas treble notes 33 to 39 inclusive are a bit 'dead'.
I have had the piano tuned - the piano tuner said that it was 'just the piano' - which I'm sure is true - he was not keen to voice the piano as 'it is all down to individual taste' - an understandable comment which I have also heard from other tuners.
However, having read the above mentioned thread, is it possible that this apparent 'design fault' can be mitigated by toning? If so, and I do it myself as a keen amateur (I have Reblitz to guide on methodology), do I need to harden or soften the bass notes and harden or soften the treble notes.....Barrie? 
Apologies for the somewhat 'involved' nature of this posting.
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heidi34
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Joined: 11 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| May I ask the height of a Kemble Woburn? Is it the same as a T121Z? |
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Ben Wimpenny
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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A Kemble Woburn is 110 cm/ 43.5 inches high
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Barrie Heaton
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Joined: 30 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Kemble toning/voicing |
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| Ben Wimpenny wrote: | Ref. "new" 1994 Kemble thread - Barrie states that the bass treble crossover problem in Kembles of this period can be overcome by toning/voicing.
I have a 1994 Kemble Woburn which I bought a couple of months ago - before that it was virtually unused - no hammer wear etc. I am generally very pleased with it but the bass/treble cross over is a bit dodgy - bass notes 27 to 32 are a bit buzzy (soundboard seems ok, no split bridge, no rust on strings, copper windings seemingly o.k) whereas treble notes 33 to 39 inclusive are a bit 'dead'. . |
First of all it is not just Kembles that have this problem all makes have this problem and the 110cm to 118 size have this problem to a larger degree. However, the larger the piano the less work is involved in masking the change over.
The main problem on the 110 size is at the change over it is covered string to steel now on the larger models the first few notes in the treble are covered string making the change over more easer to disguise it is not normally a soundboard problem but again because of the size of the piano the end of the treble bridge is closer to the end of the soundboard than it is on a larger piano
| Ben Wimpenny wrote: |
I have had the piano tuned - the piano tuner said that it was 'just the piano' - which I'm sure is true - he was not keen to voice the piano as 'it is all down to individual taste' - an understandable
comment which I have also heard from other tuners.
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Lets get some terminology defined UK Voicing is what we do to harpsichords Toning is what we do to pianos. In the US Voicing is done on pianos it is just so readers form both sides of the pond know that they both mean the same thing “to alter to tone of the piano or harpsichord”
Yes it is down to “individual taste” However, most tuners don’t like toning because it is an individual taste and it can very easily go wrong and be expensive to put right but all pianos need re toning at some time in the future so the tuner has to do it, the client can’t in most cases they can’t so they use the standard cop out “ it’s just the piano” sorry if I sound judgemental on your tuner who probably is a good tuner who is just not happy toning.
| Ben Wimpenny wrote: |
However, having read the above mentioned thread, is it possible that this apparent 'design fault' can be mitigated by toning?
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See above
| Ben Wimpenny wrote: |
If so, and I do it myself as a keen amateur (I have Reblitz to guide on methodology), do I need to harden or soften the bass notes and harden or soften the treble notes.....Barrie?
Apologies for the somewhat 'involved' nature of this posting. |
There is more skill required to do toning correct than there is to tune a piano it’s not just a matter of hardening or softening you need to know where to stick the needles what size to use, how many, what length and what angle then there is the shape of the nose you some times have to alter that to get the desired effect
Now in the case of the change over notes 27 to 32 you need to kill some of the over tones and in notes 33 34 35 you need to make them stand out more. So for Notes 33 34 35 you need long needles to release some of the iner-tension to make the outer tension of the felt more springy, you can’t explain that on paper you need to there to make a judgment on how much and where. That takes practise – if you must do it try it on some old Junkers first not your Kemble
Barrie,
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Last edited by Barrie Heaton on Sat May 15, 2004 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ben Wimpenny
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the advice Barrie - very interesting.
Over the past few months I have been toying with the idea of buying an old 'banger' to practise on - not just for toning but also other aspects of piano repair/restoration - I think I'll go ahead now.
Will any 'old banger do' or should I be looking out for a particular type of 'old banger'?
Lastly, how do I kill overtones? (N.B. I realise there is a gulf between theory and practice here - but what's the theory i.e what part of the hammer needs needling and how deep/how many needles?)
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Barrie Heaton
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Wimpenny wrote: | Thanks for all the advice Barrie - very interesting.
Over the past few months I have been toying with the idea of buying an old 'banger' to practise on - not just for toning but also other aspects of piano repair/restoration - I think I'll go ahead now.
Will any 'old banger do' or should I be looking out for a particular type of 'old banger'?
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An over strung with a decent bass – when toning the piano should be in tune
| Ben Wimpenny wrote: |
Lastly, how do I kill overtones? (N.B. I realise there is a gulf between theory and practice here - but what's the theory i.e what part of the hammer needs needling and how deep/how many needles?) |
All depends on the tone of each hammer, and the shape in the case of your Kemble you may not need to do anything with the bass hammers once the treble hammers have been sorted the changeover may be fine, but to answer you question you are softening the hammers nose Very shallow toning in your case I would use 3 fine needles set at 2 mm 2 stabs on the strike point, patience is the name of the game A few stabs at a time don’t go wild you can very easily kill the tone of a piano, so if you are going to try it do it on a Junker when you are happy with the results reshape the hammers and do it again on the Junker
Barrie,
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Barrie Heaton
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Ben Wimpenny
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Once again Barrie - thanks for the advice - it is very much appreciated.
Regards
Ben Wimpenny
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